Matt Cloyd reports from Dewey Square this morning (may take a moment or two to come up):
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Matty my boy
By Stevil
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 10:14am
We did SO MUCH MORE with this land than these landscapers. They're packing dirt. We changed the world.
Matt Cloyd21 hours agoReplyRetweet“Gleeful ignoramuses taking pictures. They're not bad people, they just don't understand what this place was. They will in a year though.
Like so many of your generation you have a far too inflated opinion of yourself. You didn't change anything - most people thought you disorganized and in the end self-centered. A friend who moved to NY (who's 30) said her facebook page lit up with joyous messages from all of her similarly aged Boston friends when your sorry butts got tossed. You came in, made a lot of noise, a big mess and ran up a big tab when that money could have been spent on so many other more worthwhile things. Some day you'll grow up and realize your side show did little more than waste your time. You can't regulate morality, common sense or lack of ability to see the future - all of which were the root problems with the financial crisis. This stuff has been going on for millennia. Banging drums for two months on a median strip isn't going to change human behavior, but if your delusion keeps you happy - enjoy it while it lasts. I'm not a fan of the Tea Party - but they have already changed the world far more than you ever will - sorry that's gotta hurt - but it's the truth. It's over and the world hasn't budged.
Whatever you think of Occupy Boston
By Matthew
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 10:49am
The problem of the financial crisis isn't that there are bad people out there. We know that. It's that fraud was committed and the law was either powerless or unwilling to punish it. We're not doomed to be at the mercy of the business cycle as certain Wall St executives would have you believe. We deregulated the industry too far -- and weakened the remaining regulators too much. Those regulations were put in place following the Great Depression, but they were removed to help improve the bottom line of Big Finance by a few percentage. At least until everything came crashing down.
Regulatory capture
By EM Painter
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 11:27am
The more regulations you put in, the more the industry will seek to influence both their writing and the way they are enforced.
Don't regulations inevitably lead to a responsibility on the part of the government to keep the regulated industry going?
Sooo...
By John-W
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 11:53am
We should use the angered peasants function?
if(corporate malfeasance)
then(pitchforks and fire);
William K Black knows bank fraud
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 9:54am
This guy knows bank fraud. He cut his teeth on the S&L scandal in the 80's VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_AuvLTJNh0
If you think he's speaking the truth, then you have to believe that fraud including the fraudulent taking of people's homes has been going on in America for over 3 years, without consequence. If you believe that, then you must ask if why gov't is not enforcing the law.
Heh
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:27pm
Hedge funds, CDS, Derivatives, Options, futures, ect.
You want me to go down the full list of relatively new finical instruments that lack proper regulations and were used to leverage client money improperly?
The problem wasn't regulatory capture, but lack of regulatory oversight from the beginning. Much of the junk being traded are new financial vehicles that government did not have oversight on due to lack of law.
Plus, your solution appears to be let them do whatever they want, and let them fail when they inevitably screw up. That moral hazard will keep them in line.
I agree, but what does that mean for the US Economy? Are you suggesting we should just let free market Capitalism bomb us to the stone age?
Ultimately, moral hazard didn't. Because nations can not (and should not) let their economy go into a death spiral. That means there is no moral hazard for corporations if they can get to big to fail.
Ultimately the government is the counter wight, and the government should nationalize, stabilize, and break up these behemoths. especially when they need a government bailout.
But, but , but socialism!
Reduce gov't levers, you won't need to regulate so much
By EM Painter
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 11:23am
If you reduced government levers on the economy, specifically returned to an automatic currency supplier such as the gold standard, you direct investors to make their bets on the economy, rather than the government action.
Right now more investors are betting on what the government will do to the value of the dollar/yen/euro etc than what actually happens to the businesses in these countries.
For instance, I bet that the Chinese will increase the value of the yuan vs. the dollar. Then the corruption comes in, I pay off Charles Schumer and other congressmen to make good on my bet, no matter what it means for the US economy.
Thanks
By anon²
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 11:47am
I'll make note you're a gold (digger) too.
Probably also worried about inflation?
$4 peanut butter
By EM Painter
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 3:25pm
Since it's my major source of protein right now, did you notice how the price has gone up over $4/jar at Shaws?
Extra! Extra! Peanut butter price *not* sign of end times!
By Jeff F
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 4:46pm
Just of a really bad peanut harvest this year. Google am you friend.
So come on out of your bunker EM, the inflata-pocalypse is not yet at hand.
$2.25 pasta, $3.50 gas, $15 lb. coffee, $15K health insurance
By EM Painter
Wed, 12/14/2011 - 10:06pm
$40K "family" minivan
$60K college
$400K single family house in Boston with shitty schools
Do you want me to go on?
Where the hell do you shop for groceries?
By Jeff F
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 4:16am
try pasta $1/lbs, gas $3.17, coffee (organic, fair trade, local roasted) $7.25/lbs. In fact, I've noticed that produce prices have been pretty flat the last couple years.
Prices go up over time? Sure. But are any of the above 'evidence' of recent inflation, as you imply? No, not at all. And housing and auto prices have deflated in the last half decade here (as in most of the US), so that directly counters your apparent supposition.
Worrying about inflation right now is like worrying about heat stroke in December.
***
And re: those 'shitty schools' - there's plenty of things I'd like to see changed at the BPS (mostly at the Court street level), but overall my 11 year old has gotten an excellent public education here. It's true that there are some poorly run schools, but at least at the K-8 level and in the West Zone, the typical BPS school is actually pretty darn good, especially for a large urban area. Multiple national studies bear this out.
Housing prices versus cost of housing
By SwirlyGrrl
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 8:46am
The inflated price of housing has been slightly reduced IF you have the money to buy and IF you can actually get a mortgage without excessive add-ons because the bank only hires people to lowball the estimates (hmmm ... puts you in a different category ... yeah). We got that when we refinanced - even though similar houses in the neighborhood sold for $50-70K more in the last month than ours was "estimated" at.
Meanwhile, there has been little relief in rents.
Real people don't just buy houses with cash. They have to finance them, qualify for financing, etc. That's why a lot of people rent, and not being able or willing to buy a house - if only because the banks don't do a good job of turning over REOs because it would drop prices - pushes the rental market up.
Meanwhile, those of us who buy massive quantities of food know goddamn well the prices have been going up pretty steeply. That's because our food prices are heavily dependent on oil and gas prices, and these have gone up quite a bit. To say otherwise is to ignore a google news page full of reality.
Futures affecting food prices too
By Kaz
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:56am
Gas prices have gone up because of a huge influx of money into the futures markets through a set of banks that got secret memos that let them ignore the rules on speculators...and then everyone else pushing their money into the system via those banks. This artificially inflates the actual cost of the commodities, like gas. Of course, once that effects the cost to grow/harvest/bring to market the food crops, those prices go up and the futures on those get bought up like crazy too...which further pushes the price up artificially just like it did to gas originally. It's a vicious cycle.
You can read about the math/logic of it in "Griftopia" by Taibbi.
Food prices have *not* been going up steeply over time in US
By Jeff F
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:42am
Short term maybe, but over the last few years, not so much. I buy lots of food too SG - typically producing (vs. purchasing ready-made) 55-60 person-meals per week. I'm old enough to remember what real inflation looks and feels like - and what we have now ain't it. Our current economic ills are not inflation-based.
[img]http://bls.gov/ro5/cpichichart1.gif[/img]
(I'm sure there are graphs at BLS that explicitly call out all the CPI categories (eg food). But you can see that the food&energy CPI (blue curve minus red curve) is relatively narrow - and the lion's share of that is energy, not food. Ref the data at the linked text.)
high food prices
By EM Painter
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:15pm
Look around you, junior. Inflation is the measure of all prices. What you're seeing is the uneven ratcheting up of prices even during a terrible recession because workers and suppliers are under pressure to give their goods and labor away at fire sale prices.
The dollar becomes weaker through loose money, and then different sectors and industries respond at different rates. This was the same during the 1970s when oil and food and other commodities went up first. It takes the rest of us a lot longer to negotiate our wages up, especially if a recession has caused high unemployment and plentiful labor. In the meantime our standard of living is crashing out because even if your salary remains stable, it buys a lot less stuff.
I think you should really get out and look around. Prices are higher and they are hurting everybody. I don't know how you can be so callous about it unless you're attached to some weird economic theory that is threatened by these facts.
Not inflation
By anon²
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 1:41pm
Inflation hasn't really been a problem, outside of a few core groups.
Wage stagnation and purchasing power has. It's dropped like a rock from it's historical trend line.
Wages over the past 15 years have totally been removed from their correlation with productivity. It part of the reason for the debt bubble, as people filled the void with debt and loans against equity.
So if you want to worry about something, worry that people are no longer getting their fair share for doing more work.
Jeff F, Where the hell do you shop for groceries?
By anon
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:01pm
Never seen coffee prices this low in the city unless it's Folgers in the big plastic jug. Where is this magical grocery store? (snark not intended)
Village Market in Rosi
By Jeff F
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 2:27pm
2 lbs bags. Columbian, French Vanilla, Breakfast Blend, et al. Local roaster. Great value.
When I'm not being lame, I roast my own for approx the same cost - and even better quality if I order online (green coffee beans also available at various South End/North End shops, but are either a more expensive/not highest quality).
Ah, Village Market!
By adamg
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 2:32pm
I'm always so tempted to buy one of their giant bags o' beans, but then I remember that a) I have no grinder and b) I don't drink that much coffee (in a household where I'm the only one who ever touches the stuff).
They also sell lots of grain-type things in bulk.
We can't all drive to Roxie's
By EM Painter
Fri, 12/16/2011 - 12:09pm
But look, if Peets coffee goes from $9/lb at Shaws to $16/lb at Shaws, if Teddie goes from $2.30 at Shaws to $4.60 at Shaws, the answer is not "well I buy cheaper coffee" or "I ground my own peanuts for $2" or "I drive to Roxie's to buy coffee".
Or "you shouldn't drink so much coffee" or "you should substitute tofu butter for peanut butter."
$40K "family" minivan$60K
By anon²
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 1:48pm
Yup. But it wasn't inflation. Those are all funded by the debt markets which was the huge demand bubble that just popped. It wasn't inflation, but speculation.
Student loans are next: http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/12/12/387823...
And as said, check out wages adjusted for inflation vs productivity. There's a reason people first turned toward debt, then went wild with it when banks opened the flood gates.
They were making up the gap as their employers short changed them to post higher profits.
Now you're on to something
By Stevil
Thu, 12/15/2011 - 5:43pm
I agree that college costs are ridiculous. These people are building empires, not institutions of higher learning. That's a battle occupy could win - if one by one students at schools like BU said - hey we are not paying $45,000 a year in tuition (or whatever ridiculous number it now is). We'll pay say $30,000 and then they band together and agree not to pay - or at least a large number of them agree. The schools could threaten to not give them their diplomas - but they would be broke in VERY short order - or they'd have to decimate their endowments to pay the bills. They could bring in the "B" team of students - but that wouldn't make it a very desirable academic institution. I think students - i.e. customers from a VERY limited pool (they can pay and have met some level of standards) have a lot of leverage in a unique situation like this. I think you pay by the semester so they could start as soon as January. National Tuition Boycotts. Now THAT would be fun to watch.
Teddie Super Chunky peanut
By anon
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 5:59pm
Teddie Super Chunky peanut butter is 2 for $5 at Market Basket. Shaws, as we all know, is a ripoff though the only local choice for many.
A natural peanut butter man
By EM Painter
Wed, 12/14/2011 - 10:09pm
If Shaws is selling it for $3.60-$4.60, you can bet it will go up everywhere else. S&S already hiked the price to $3.30.
Everybody always has some little explanation for discreet prices going up. Global warming hit the coffee crop or whatever. It's different when they all go up.
The one that got away
By Stevil
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 1:32pm
You've been drinking the Kool Aid - deregulation -with one exception did not cause this problem. The primary rule they needed to change or implement was the amount of leverage the firms were allowed to employ. If the ratio had been closer to 10-1 instead of 30-1 we wouldn't have been in this mess to begin with (along with properly accounting for the leverage/reserves which is a whole different ball of wax - see current problems in Europe for a perfect example).
Everyone wants to blame it on Glass-Steagall - when in fact the real culprit was reserve ratios against risky assets. Granted - you need to define risky assets - MBS were nowhere near as safe as they claimed which means they needed more reserves against them (I'm not even sure they needed any reserves on these). It's not more or less regulation - it's right regulation - Dodd-Frank and reinstating Glass-Steagall are not the answers - they do nothing to solve for example what just happened with MF Global - but if you had greater regulation and controls on the amount of leverage they used (which Corzine successfully lobbied against), MF Global doesn't blow up - go out of biz maybe - but they don't blow up along with over $1 billion of client money.
Like speed, its cousin leverage kills.
Sounds like you agree with me
By Matthew
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 1:55pm
I'm not pro- or anti- regulation for regulation's sake alone. It is there to prevent bank failures from dragging down the rest of us. Glass-Steagall may have been a blunt instrument, but it had worked for a long time. Whether you choose to reinstate that law, regulate leverage ratios, institute a financial insurance mechanism, or something else, the important part is to protect the rest of the economy from the inevitable failures of these firms.
If safe assets are AAA, then they redefine AAA
By EM Painter
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 11:16am
You can see what happens when the regulation says you can only invest in triple A grade debt -- all of a sudden lots of new stuff gets rated triple A.
And on Corzine, the question for me is not the billion dollars that disappeared. It's that he bet on government action when he was intimately connected to the government. It couldn't be clearer that big money will influence the government to take certain actions in order to make private investments pay off.
Molly Katchpole
By Boston_res
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 11:16am
She accomplished something. Not by sitting around singing,banging drums, living in a tent, invading bank lobbies and taunting authorities. She did it by collecting signatures, closing her account with BoA and gaining attention in a positive way.
Sleep. Consume. Reproduce.
By Dan Farnkoff
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 11:28am
Give up.
Behold, the great wisdom of the aged one. Gee whiz! Why didn't I think of that?
Be good, Citizen!
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:12pm
[img]http://twitchfilm.com/news/TheyLiveRemake_650.jpg[...
Nice reference, such a great
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:17pm
Nice reference, such a great movie!
Goes to show you
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:26pm
how much we've digressed.
Today it would be:
Work:14
Sleep:6
Play:4
Are you really that dense?
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 1:17pm
There was a yahoo poll that showed Income Inequality as the third most important issue to Americans, only behind jobs and the roll of the government in the economy. If OWS never happened, no one would be talking about Income inequality at all. The Tea Party didn't change anything, they were just a more right wing version of the already existing right wing nutcases we have. OWS actually changed the national dialogue. Sorry if that's hard for you to accept.
There was a yahoo poll that
By PeterGriffith5
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 2:31pm
Generally true, it did detract from the Kardashian wedding/non-wedding.
Part of the problem that young activists have (I'm assuming that the author is young) is cultural imperialism where their way is the only way, and if other parties in the conversation have another perspective, they must be dense.
I would humbly suggest that this is not the best way to persuade others to your point. Drumming, blocking traffic or closing down ports won't win you many supporters either. In fact, you will push some sympathetic folks away from your point.
It may just be an indirect correlation, but I believe that they were a major voice in the last congressional election and significantly changed the political conversation away from economic stimulus and job creation to national deficit and debt reduction.
Naturally being more in the Elizabeth Warren camp, I've talked with fair number of Tea Party members, some of whom are not naturally right wing, but feel disenfranchised by Democratic Party as it's moved away from it's blue collar roots. They think that the Tea Party and to some extent, the GOP have been much more effective in reaching out to the members of the former blue collar workers.
As a progressive, I would encourage other progressives to learn to listen to folks who are not rooted in the suburbs and the academy.
I'd be curious to know more
By Matthew
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 3:01pm
About these "disenfranchised Democrats" that moved to the Tea Party.
There have been quite a few polls to determine the composition of the support of Tea Party related groups around the country. Most of them find that the majority of "Tea Partiers" are in fact, people who vote and support Republicans, and the conservative agenda.
CBS News poll
Article in The Guardian
Analysis by Pew Forum on Religion
Lots of "disenfranchised Dems"...;.
By Michael Kerpan
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 3:05pm
...especially (though not exclusively) in the South -- they never forgave LBJ (and the party) for abandoning support of racial discrimination. Some remained nominal Dems -- yet have voted mostly for the GOP in national elections for decades now.
Well...
By Matthew
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 3:13pm
I was asking more about people who actually voted non-Republican until the Tea Party came around, but were convinced to vote GOP as a result. The data shows that most of the people in the Tea Party are hardcore conservative, economically and socially, regardless of their nominal affiliation.
I'm not sure that even one....
By Michael Kerpan
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 3:27pm
... regular Dem voter (in national races) who has joined the Tea Party has ever been identified. ;~}
He went over
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 5:48am
Right after his family farm was broken up by the estate tax.
But he's back now
By anon
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 9:35am
Once the firefighters stood there and did nothing because he didn't pay the libertarian firefighting fee, he changed his mind.
Any documented cases of this either?
By Michael Kerpan
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 9:36am
Has anyone ever documented an actual case in which a working farm (on which a family depended for its living -- and not just as a hobby or tax write-off) having to be sold off due to federal estate tax?
No really
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 9:41am
It happened to a friend of a friend of mine. It was the icing on the cake after being spit on when he got back from Nam.
"You didn't change anything -
By tape
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 1:17pm
"You didn't change anything - most people thought you disorganized and in the end self-centered."
If you are a person that thinks this, that means you didn't pay any attention to what was going on at all. There's quite a lot of "organization" (perhaps even too much from what I saw at a couple of GAs), and considering that all of the major goals I heard from the occupiers have the end result of improving the quality of life for a large number of people, your comments are misguided at best and willfully ignorant at worst.
Shows what you know...
By Kaz
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 3:04pm
"In the end"? Who said they were done?
The one
By fibrowitch
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 10:31am
The one difference between the Occupy crowd and the Tea Party crowd. After the Tea party and single day meetings around the country they took their views to the ballot box. After the Occupations ended the happy campers and drummers will do zero follow up. I doubt more than a 10th of the group at Dewey Square are even registered to vote.
As an aside, is any one else freaked out that it's December 12th and the ground is not frozen?
Thanks, Fibrowitch
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 11:34am
This is reason number one why OB was the subject of so much ridicule from so many people who would otherwise have embraced it: OB was more concerned with setting up tents and defending the encampment than plotting a political course of action and promoting responsible financial policy.
The Tea Party analogy is absolutely correct. Sure they have wacky positions on taxes and our Martian president, but they're promoting candidates and voting consistently to bring about the change they want. Occupy just never got past the wacky position stage (denouncing Thanksgiving and freeing Tarek Mehanna, great, that's your plan to unite the 99%?).
So here's a chance for OB to actually accomplish something. Develop a strong, active, dependable voting bloc and present "the 99%" with reasons to support your candidates. There's a quote on the Globe site that "It was never about the tents." Here's their chance to prove it.
The Tea Partiers were being
By anon
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 2:03pm
The Tea Partiers were being fed an agenda by their owners. The occupiers were trying to build one from the ground up. That's the difference between the two movements, and why the nuttier, racist, fascist one seems to have been so much more "effective" in politics - because they were basically hand puppets, with the Kochs' mitts up their butts. They got tons of press, they had access, there was a corporate megaphone (Fox) behind them. Seriously, try to see things as they are.
Much too early to say any of this
By Ron Newman
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:46pm
We haven't even had state or federal elections in the two months since this movement started. Give it time.
Perhaps you didn't notice but
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 1:21pm
the Tea Party lost everywhere except districts where the population was already insane right wingers. Even in Mississippi they couldn't get their abortion amendment passed, and none of their guys are going be the Republican nominee, or even close to it. Considering the enormous amount of corporate money the Tea Party had to work with, I'd say they were a spectacular failure, overhyped by people like you who don't actually pay attention to what goes on except what Fox News tells ya.
So many crocodile tears.
By Omri
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 10:38am
... for a patch of turf nobody used until OccupyBoston took over it.
It would be funny if it weren't sad.
You bring up a good point
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:14pm
Many around here were calling it a grassy median long before OB moved in.
Yeah, um
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 11:04am
Dear Matt, as far as changing the world goes, you did indeed change things: our city budget is short $1m, workers in our central financial district were slightly inconvenienced for two months, and the Greenway laid down new turf. Past that, don't go around slapping yourselves on the back under the impression that you were doing much else besides playing bongo drums and arguing with drunks in between the occasional demonstrations; which are of questionable effectiveness anyway -- more a stand-in for committed and sustained political action, which requires applied energy and focus. The Occupation provided little of tangible benefit to the city or its surroundings. "Initiating a conversation" isn't enough; "American Idol" does more to initiate conversation that you ever will. And, by the way, once you initiate you can't necessarily control that conversation, which among the majority has turned against you.
And as far as "a new movement" goes, how can your herd of stray cats do anything when you can't even corral the drugs and violence that were so very central a part of the occupation? You only see what you want to see, which is fine I suppose in so far as it goes, but don't expect everyone else to surrender to your selective analysis.
I for one am glad to see you go. Good riddance, and back to the burbs with ye.
Growing up, paying attention, not listening to Limbaugher
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:47pm
These are all options.
Too bad you are too brainwashed to even know they are options.
Yep!
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 8:14pm
There's that cultural imperialism. You in your smugness think you're smarter, better, more human than other people. Say I do listen to Rush (which I do not), what of it? Anyone who does not think like you is "brainwashed" -- highly ironic.
The only difference between you and a Fascist is that a Fascist would have a snappier uniform.
Facism
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 9:51pm
is really a left wing movement, right?
I would defend you, but then you told us all you're taking "enlighten" marching orders from a dope fiend. Between you and the guy above, this is why we can't have nice things.
"Facism"?
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 11:10pm
i prefer roxy music to the small faces
and in spirit, certainly, i see a lot of the authoritarian tendency on the parts of many occupiers, the difference being that they don't have any power to act on it, and thank the Lord for it.
also, you might want to brush up on your reading comprehension. i specifically stated that i do NOT listen to rush, but as with most of your ilk you read selectively and see only what you like.
Rush
By John-W
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 11:46am
I don't listen to Rush either. That Neil Peart is just too rabid an Ayn Rand fan.
Christ
By Craiggles
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 11:53am
Sorry, Matt, but you just brought yourself down to wall street's level. Your tweets make you sound like a pompous, head-inflated douche. Changed the world? No, you didn't. The world may change, but Boston's little misguided, confused occupation didn't change anything, except for people's opinions of the movement.
Heavens to Betsy!
By John-W
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:03pm
Oh dear! The city had to pay to clean up after the Occupiers! Lord knows the money that went to Police overtime and cleanup would have gone directly to housing the homeless, getting them mental health and addiction services, saving the whales and polishing unicorn horns.
Thank vishnu we can go back to complaining about how the glorified median strip isn't used by anyone. All these people actually making use of the damned thing was really screwing up that whiny UHub meme.
And certainly these stinky, drum-banging trustfund hippy, millenial, Apple-product dependent, suburban-sourced, clueless, lazy-ass, shouldn't have gotten an overpriced liberal arts degree in the first place, nitwits haven't changed a damned thing. No doubt Martha Coakley would have launched a counterpunch on the banks even if absolutely no one was talking about this outside of platitudes of bad apples and "boys will be boys (who are actually sociopathic criminals)."
And for the whole two or so months that this thing has been going on there has been no electoral effect of these people (assuming those elections in Ohio and Maine where GOP/Tea overreach was slapped down and a GOP recall in AZ had more to do with people being happy with the way things are), so we can assume that none of them will vote or try to influence matters going forward, because.... well that sounds good to me. They may be willing to sleep in a tent on a median strip, but I doubt they'll vote.
This all seems like a very reasonable analysis of the situation.
If you're a dick.
Matt, First of all, thank you
By PeterGriffith5
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:11pm
Matt,
First of all, thank you for your commitment to the protest. I can easily imagine what a profound experience it must have been in your you and the other participants.
However, I'm afraid that I have to agree with much of Stevil's remarks. After the first few weeks of the occupation movement, it became obvious that the sheer audacity of "occupying public space" as a protest had captured the public's attention. It also became obvious that the movement was far more interested in appealing to every small constituent group than it was in creating a legacy that would have a positive affect on American political life.
What could have become the founding of a great American progressive resurgence instead mixed a protest about corporate malfeasance into a jambalaya of competing special interests. Protests about concentrated corporate power became diluted with LGBT rights, Animal rights, anti-capitalist screeds and protests and student loan relief. Ultimately the message was became further diluted when the discussion became almost soley about the Occupation itself being an act of free speech.
Occupy had a rare opportunity to punch through our present muddy politics and provide real information and provide real alternatives. Instead Occupy tried to completely reeducate the American public about a utopian community experiment that was spoken of as if were a permanent option. Because most of us spend a great deal of time making a living, raising our families and dealing with all of life’s minutiae, the public, we don’t have time for hour of GA’s each day interrupted by working group meeting. In other words, occupy should have worked more to provide a few retail options.
As sympathetic figures such as Bill Clinton and Tom Menino have suggested, the movement would have done better to use that great energy and excitement that arose to choose one or two issues such as a return to progressive taxation, re instituting the effective government regulation of the banking system that the U.S. enjoyed for decades after the FDR administration or even supporting Elizabeth Warren's campaign.
Sadly it appears that the legacy of the movement may be as temporary as the already fading chalk etchings on the sidewalk. Instead of making lamentable comparisons between your actions at the camp to landscapers unrolling sod, I challenge you and the other participants to take some time learn your lessons from your unique rich experiences and do better.
America needs you.
You know, you could always
By anon
Tue, 12/13/2011 - 2:06pm
You know, you could always ditch the plantation-slave mentality, stop blaming (oh, sorry, "challenging") other people for not being a better citizen than you are, and start making a difference yourself. America needs YOU.
Haters going to Hate?
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:30pm
Love all the entitled douchery in this comment section from people sockpuppeting that the money could have been better spent.... coming from the same concern trolls that often cry taxes are evil and liberals drool.
ultimately, Occupy did do one concrete thing, it changed the focus of the MSM. Lots of recent talk about income inequality, unemployment, foreclosure, the damn economy and lack of JOBS.
Something that barely got a whimper from the MSM and our elected officials just two months back.
It was all austerity, all the time; so main street time to buckle those bootstraps because hey, Wallstreet is too important to ask to tighten theirs. That not fair of us, even with a trillion dollar bailout.
Good on them. They changed the dialogue, directed by the beltway and 1%. Thats is no easy feat, and they did so more successfully than the Teaparty.
Anon-squared
By Bailey
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 12:42pm
Love how you HATE hard on the people who are not behind the OB...that only they are douchie or trolling...
Let me ask did you support OB other than ranting here ?????????
Doubt it....So dont act like you are GOD
I did,
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 2:00pm
But I also have my issues with the movement and some of the more utopian, stary minded individuals in it. I'm more of a realist, than a radical. They've done good work, but unless they stay together and GOTV; it was only winning a battle. I think thir plan to try to shut down ports on the East/West Coast coming up is very short sighted. Harassing workers normal lives and mom & pop shops, just to scratch the mega corps isn't good for the movement. Shutting down shipping for a day isn't going to harm the people they think it will.
Anyways, I just call it as I see it.
It's disingenuous to me that the same people deriding government as useless are the ones applauding Menino for his heavy handed, liberty squashing tactics. Especially under the nanny state guise of "sanitary conditions and upholding ordinances". These same people will hoot and holler bout their right for LTC and castle laws.
That people complaining about government spending and waste are actually using arguments that the money would have been better spent, or that using police force to babysit a small group of nonviolent protestors is smart, prudent use of police resources in a city where people are getting shot at daily.
Yeah, I'll cal out their ideological hypocrisy any day. It's apparent, shameful, and small minded. Especially when they're the ones on the attack, then claiming victimization.
I don't agree one bit with the Teaparty anymore, since they fell back into their safe spot of working against their enemies and focusing their message of taxes, government, and libruls are Evil. They had me when they were pointing out that the Government shouldn't be baling out private banks who screwed everyone but their CEO's and BOD. But then they got confused, and they started squawking that any attempt to break the banks up was socialism. Sorry if I don't sign on to nihilist, self destructive politcs that only wish to see the "bad guy" (insert boogyman of the week here) burn for their sins.
Bad, good, better, best - not hypocrisy
By Stevil
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 2:39pm
Spending money babysitting occupistas (many if not most of whom are not even city residents - we just happen to be a densely populated focal point and thus a target of these suburban assault teams) is a bad way to spend money. Spending it on extra services like teaching, fire and police is good, paying down debt is better and not taxing me and leaving it in my pocket so I can choose to spend or save it as I see fit is best.
It's not hypocrisy, it's prioritizing. Given as I don't see them paying down debt or giving it back to me, I'm happy to advocate for extra services on things we really need, but given my druthers - we'd all be better off if the city stopped tipping us upside down and shaking the coins out of our pockets.
Hey
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 3:14pm
you won't hear me arguing against efficiency in government. I think that's where the focus should be, as starving the beast is a red herring and a good way to raise deficits and while appearing fiscally conservative.
But here's the thing, corporations are terribly inefficient too. It's not a problem exclusive to government. Especially large ones.
I'd also argue that the "best" thing for the individual (keeping all your money, no government to deal with), is not the best thing for the economy or the community. Those are arguments that were won long before much of written history. Even though we have fundamental liberties and rights, we choose to delegate some for security, safety, and prosperity as a community. Unfortunately, A LOT of the arguments coming from the GOP now a days seems like they literally want to send state and federal governments out to the pasture. They believe in no government, unless it can completely be controlled by their ideology.
If libertarian paradises worked in the real world, there'd be quite a few of them around. As it is, they're about as common and lasting as hippie communes.
I'm only talking about a milllion dollars
By Stevil
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 3:54pm
not all government, in this case just the cost of the occupation (we should have shot cannons at them from the hills of Dorchester-worked for the British!).
Even I think Boston can only reasonably drop another 5-10% of "fluff" before we really start missing services (We've gone from 17,000 employees to 16,000 since FY 2009 and I bet most people would be extremely hard pressed to figure out where they cut). You'd have been hard pressed to find 1000 heads of fat in the private sector in a force this size even in 2007.
Evidence?
By anon
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 4:10pm
I realize that you think that you have a million dollar booty, but every number you pull out of it isn't automagically God's Own Truth.
Lets see some honest statistics - not bloviations spread as rumor here. Also, consider that the police presence was totally excessive.
Hard to tell
By anon²
Mon, 12/12/2011 - 5:34pm
But one example is state wise is the state police.
They stopped hiring and let their number drop through attrition because of budget cuts, and then underfunding in this bad economy. I've heard "conservatives" complain about the tax money we have to pay to keep police in the same breath of them complaining that Eval Deval has been hamstringing the Troopers in this state.
As for occupy, let's not pretend this was an appropriate show of force.
You want to talk about where the real money pit is, let's talk about how they're all dressed as stormtroopers now a days. Even small regional cities like Worcester have that sort of riot gear. It's not cheap, and it's stuff that was deemed unnecessary by our representatives and the public at large 15-20 years ago and before. In that time crime has gone down, not up. Our police routinely show up looking like something out of a dystopian 80's flick.
But, if you want to ok this reckless spending in the name of beating up some nonviolent hippies and projecting questionable authority, while screaming about high taxes.. well that's on you.
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