ACLU to Quincy: Knock it off with the ten-foot-tall statues of Catholic saints outside a municipal building

By adamg on Mon, 02/24/2025 - 7:13pm

The ACLU of Massachusetts says Quincy should cancel plans to frame the entrance of the city's new public-safety building with massive statues of Saint Michael and Saint Florian, because both the state and federal constitutions prohibit governments from favoring one religion over others.

In a letter to Quincy Mayor Thomas Koch and the city council today, the ACLU writes:

This display would violate the constitutions of Massachusetts and the United States and fails to reflect and respect the pluralism of the Quincy community. Such a failure would be particularly acute at a public safety building, where all Quincy residents should feel safe, welcomed, and equally respected by their government. ...

First, the purpose of the statues is plainly religious. Although Mayor Koch has attempted to justify the statues as symbolizing the "universal concept" of good versus evil, saints are specific to certain sects of Christianity. They are neither ubiquitous nor secular. Additionally, Mayor Koch has "emphasized the centrality of the figures to officers and firefighters, many of whom he said carry medallions and prayer cards bearing the saints' images." ACLUM strongly supports each person's right to exercise their own religion, including to venerate saints if they choose. However, the issue here is whether a government entity may impose religious symbols upon all who work in, visit, or pass by the public safety building. And the answer to that question is, resoundingly, "no."

Second, placing larger-than-life statues of Catholic saints in front of a public building unequivocally advances one religion to the exclusion of all others. It conveys the message that Quincy is a Catholic community and that non-Catholics do not belong or are less valued. It is especially troubling to send this kind of message at the public safety building, where all Quincy residents should feel safe and welcomed to speak with and seek assistance from their public safety officials.

The ACLU also noted the particularly troubling imagery of the Saint Michael statue, which shows him standing on the neck of an anguished figure that supposedly represents the devil:

Such violent imagery is particularly abhorrent in light of the murder of George Floyd and other acts of police brutality throughout this country. As one City Councilor who is himself a retired Quincy Police Lieutenant already noted, this image "made me think of brutal force and I don't want citizens to connect this statue with the way our Officers treat anyone." This looming figure will subvert the very purpose of the public safety building, as it will only provoke fear and mistrust of law enforcement.

Neighborhoods:

Quincy

Topics:

Religion

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Comments

it's a good test case

By deselby
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 1:23am

I'm sure the ACLU will prevail in the Supreme Court. 🙄

Don't they have something better to do? There are probably twenty real civil rights violations in Massachusetts every day with victims who have actually been harmed.

It's really a zero-sum game. Work on something like this, you're not working on another thing.

I was a donor in the past, heavily at the start of Trump's first term. When they started to advocate for the suppression of speech, that was it for me. Local girl Wendy Kaminer has written on the subject.

No?

By lbb
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 9:34am

Don't they have something better to do?

Grownups can do two things at once, and so can organizations.

There are probably twenty real civil rights violations in Massachusetts every day with victims who have actually been harmed.

This is a civil rights violation, and people are harmed. Sorry that don't get it.

It's not that organizations can't do two things at once

By necturus
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 10:09am

It's a question of whether those dollars could be better spent on things that actually make life better for people.

To Quincy, I'd argue that the statues do no one any good, and are therefore a poor use of taxpayer dollars.

To the ACLU, I'd argue that you're spending money fighting statues when it could otherwise be spent saving people from harm.

To the lawyers who stand to make oodles of money from this case... well, I suppose someone needs to be able to afford those $2 million McMansions that are going up all over my neighborhood.

ACLU has infinite resources?

By robo
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 11:58am

Interesting, I didn’t know that.

Why don't you join them?

By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 1:15pm

Then you can help them align their priorities?

Also, I'm sure Quincy has better uses for that money than religious statues - maybe a big rehab center? /s

Ditto Boston bike lanes

By robo
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 2:10pm

Mayor Wu could build a huge rehab facility if she just vectored all that money that goes to bike lanes every year. Way better use of the money too.

How about a facility ...

By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 5:36pm

... for deranged motorists who can't get over turning a non-car width amount of street into a marked space for what it gets used for anyway?

All that exhaust and sloth has damaged your mind. Very sad.

The real waste of attention

By anon
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 9:34am

Why is Quincy trying to spend so much money forcing Christianity on its citizens?

Oh, yeah - the mayor is a narcissist and fascist. That's why.

There is actual harm

By mg
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 9:44am

Besides the reasons given in the article (note that one of the objections comes from a former police officer), it's wasting taxpayer money that I'm sure Quincy has better uses for.

Quincy Must Be Filthy Rich

By Pete X
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 11:31am

I mean Koch is already spending $$$ of taxpayer money on never-ending Long Island Bridge lawsuits, just because they don't want to look at a few buses of needy people going through Squantum. They must have money to burn.

Quincy had Father Bills long before Wu moved to Massachusetts

By anon
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 11:51am

It's the BRA condo plans for Long Island that they're really worried about.

Ah, the mythical condo plans, brah

By Pete X
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 1:37pm

Currently, no one is talking about condo plans. Do you think some amorphous future development is reason enough to keep anyone from getting to the much needed treatment center that already exists?

Bringing up mayor Wu's moving to MA is pretty typical of your kind of complaint, Mr. Koch, but let's play that game: Medical facilities on Long Island were reached by the bridge since 1951, they existed long before Father Bills and were in service concurrently. Got it?

Also, BRA doesn't exist.

Nice try anon

By Neal
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 4:56pm

That conspiracy can be disproven in about 30 seconds. If they bothered doing a quick search online (the MassMapper tool by MassGIS) the poster above would learn in about 30 seconds that all of the land on Long Island is protected as open space into perpetuity. It is almost impossible to remove an open space land designation in Massachusetts (especially if the land falls under the provisions of Article 97 of our Constitution, which this doesn't, but it still carries a perpetual open space restriction), doing so is about as simple and quick a process as amending the Constitution is.

ACLU no longer cares about free speech

By JT
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 10:19am

<blockquote>
I was a donor in the past, heavily at the start of Trump's first term. When they started to advocate for the suppression of speech, that was it for me. Local girl Wendy Kaminer has written on the subject.
</blockquote>

Exactly why I don't support them any more. They are no longer supporters of civil rights, they are just another left-wing advocacy group. They have said they wouldn't defend the Skokie Nazis today, even though that was a clear first amendment case. Closer to home, they advocated on the side of banning speech in McCullen v. Coakley.

They have drifted so far from their roots.

How about they put out a

By Joanna
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 9:28am

How about they put out a statue of St. Jude, the patron saint of hopeless cases?

Or St. John of Nepomuk,

By xyz
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 1:42pm

Or St. John of Nepomuk, patron of bridges.

$780,000 for Catholic Statues

By Martina
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 9:30am

I’m actually glad that the ACLU took this up…the cost and the decision to commission these statues were done in isolation by Mayor Koch. Seems like he’s taking lessons from another “leader” in our country.

I object to them on a purely

By Whit
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 10:38am

I object to them on a purely aesthetic level. They are so bad.

do you really believe that QPD and QFD are religious fanatics?

By anon
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 11:04am

They may be individually religious, as should be anyone who goes to work every day knowing that there is a possibility of death. That possibility may be remote, but it is very real and seemingly random. They deal with it by following their training, but equally important is the culture of sticking together, and adopting traditions and even superstitions. The ACLU needs to think through their absolutist view, and consider culture and tradition. Saint Michael is recognized not only by Christians, but also Jews and Moslems. Saint Florian is the Patron of Firefighters everywhere. If the police and firefighters are encouraged by those symbols, then it can only benefit them and thereby everyone else.

I'd like to know more about this

By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 7:59pm

but also Jews and Moslems

What is your source for this assertion?

Also, you don't seem to realize that many Christian sects don't recognize saints, yes? Saints are primarily an Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican thing. They are considered idolatrous and offensive in many Christian traditions, including the Puritans who first invaded what is now the City of Quincy.

And what does something having relevance to three major religions (if true) instead of a subgroup of one religion have to do with the first amendment? What part of NO do you not understand?

Didn't say QPD/QFD are religious fanatics

By mg
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 1:56pm

Didn't say QPD/QFD are religious fanatics. There's been no indication that they're the ones asking for these statues. As far as I can tell, this is coming from the mayor.

It's b.s. to say Saint Michael is recognized by Jews and Moslems - we don't have saints. And there are people from other religions (or no religion) in Quincy.

Almost every fire I hear

By Frelmont
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 8:11pm

Almost every fire I hear about in the news is accompanied by the detail that firefighters were injured and too frequently we learn that an officer of the peace is killed, or maimed in the line of duty. This isn’t establishing a religion, it’s having gratitude and a sense of humanity.

Worshipping graven images

By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 9:56pm

Ones that cost this much?

I'd say there are much better ways to express gratitude, dude.

BTW: Policing doesn't make the top ten for dangerous jobs. Firefighting does, but that includes wildfire fighters. You know what does? Working at a convenience store. Fishing. Mining. Forestry work.

I have to give you credit for creativity …

By Lee
Wed, 02/26/2025 - 12:04am

… when constructing your fantastical far fetched justifications for bullshit like this.

Why do you assume all Christians or …

By Lee
Wed, 02/26/2025 - 12:08am

… all adherents of Abrahamic religions are in favor of using government buildings to push religion on citizens?
Many strongly support the separation of church and state.

ACLU will put this right eventually.

By Lee
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 12:32pm

But Quincy will have wasted a lot of taxpayer money fighting this. Money which should have been spent on more worth while projects.

These monstrosities are offensive in so many different ways and have no place at a government building. Our Constitution profits them Maybe the mayor can use them to adorn his backyard pool house.

Just please get these eyesores somewhere where that can’t offend the public.

I may have missed something…

By Lee
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 12:35pm

… but where are Costello’s accusations of discrimination and bigotry towards Catholics by anyone objecting to these statues?

Discrimination and bigotry towards Catholics?

By necturus
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 1:41pm

While both saints may be venerated by the Catholic church, neither is really Catholic. St. Florian lived in the third century, before Christianity began to split into different denominations, and is venerated also in Eastern Orthodox churches; St. Michael is the Archangel Michael, who figures as prominently in Judaism and Islam as in Christianity.

Moreover, St. Florian is particularly associated with firefighting; according to Wikipedia, he was a Roman military officer who organized firefighting brigades.

This is not about Catholicism versus Protestantism, but about the proper use of taxpayers' dollars. And, really, it's nobody's business but the Turks' -- err, the good people of Quincy.

Why does it matter that these

By anon
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 1:56pm

Why does it matter that these people lived before the Catholic-Protestant split? Adoration of saints is a Catholic thing as far as I know (I'm no expert). And plenty of people don't belong to any religion that has any special feelings for these two people.

It’s every American’s business when …

By Lee
Wed, 02/26/2025 - 12:19am

… an elected official tries to use the powers invested in them to defy the Constitution.

not sure what the ACLU approves of and what they don't

By anon
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 1:54pm

A few years ago, I expressed my concern to Cambridge that the municipal building next to City Hall has a cornerstone with a cross on it, from its former use as a Catholic medical center.

The city wrote back and said, "The cross is there because it's a former Catholic medical center." They did not provide any evidence that the cornerstone was a protected historic feature that was unable to be altered. They also had no issue covering up the original building name sign over the door with a sign for the municipal building.

I wrote to the ACLU about this. They said it wasn't a First Amendment violation, and it's up to the city to decide if they want to keep the cross or remove it. I'm not sure why they considered this differently from the Quincy issue.

In any case, the problem will sort of solve itself. The cornerstone only became visible because some shrubs were removed. The city planted new shrubs which will eventually building grow big enough to block the cornerstone.

These statues, rather, these

By Frelmont
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 2:06pm

These statues, rather, these icons represent virtues that also exist apart from any religion. Plus, there’s an historical aspect that transcends religion as well.

NO

By anon
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 2:20pm

they are religious. they do not belong on public property or funded by public funds. end of it.

try harder, try-hard.

Are you asserting that

By CH
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 4:47pm

Are you asserting that statues with a negative age, because they don't exist yet, are historical?

Yes. They are Forms. They

By Frelmont
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 8:16pm

Yes. They are Forms. They embody ideals, the ideal, and link to history and the human experience.

So do cageners

By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 5:39pm

But we don't see giant ones being erected near every public toilet.

Nice try, bot.

Ha! Thx for the new term.

By Frelmont
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 8:17pm

Ha! Thx for the new term.

These statues do not represent virtues.

By Lee
Wed, 02/26/2025 - 12:14am

They represent religious oppression.

There is case law on similar issues.....

By Anonymous 10
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 2:28pm

You might want to visit the Supreme Court building and take note of a guy named Moses holding two tablets that have 10 rules inscribed on the outside facade over the doorway:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/buildingfeatures.aspx

Might also want to take a peek at: Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)

There is case law on similar issues.....

By Anonymous 10
Tue, 02/25/2025 - 2:31pm

You might want to visit the Supreme Court building and take note of a guy named Moses holding two tablets that have 10 rules inscribed on the outside facade over the doorway:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/buildingfeatures.aspx

Might also want to take a peek at: Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)

ACLU to Quincy: Knock it off with the ten-foot-tall statues of Catholic saints outside a municipal building

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